Exclusive: Anti-fed fugitive Ammon Bundy has a warning for MAGA crowd about Donald Trump

Note to readers • This is the last of a two-part series from an exclusive interview with Ammon Bundy, who is wanted in Idaho and living in Utah. Read the first installment here.

Cedar City • As a wanted man leading a quieter life in southern Utah, anti-federal government zealot Ammon Bundy is no longer bellowing from bullhorns or preaching from protest lines, but that hardly means he is silent on a range of hot topics — from Donald Trump to Elon Musk, MAGA to militias, Mormon prophecy to immigration crackdowns.

In Trump, for instance, Bundy finds plenty of upside in the president’s effort to downsize the federal government and end the war in Ukraine. But he sees frightening downsides in some supporters’ almost idolatrous worship of Trump and frets about perilous parallels between the current administration and 1930s Germany.

Bundy further praises Elon Musk’s intelligence and budget-cutting ways, while scolding the Trump team for crossing the line when it characterizes everyone who crosses the U.S. border as a criminal.

That’s typical for Bundy, who sometimes defies easy labeling and dispenses surprising views.

Bundy has been living in Utah for nearly 18 months, evading an arrest warrant out of Idaho over a contempt of court charge as well as a $52.5 million judgment for defaming staffers at Boise area hospitals.

The Salt Lake Tribune recently caught up with Bundy to talk about his life on the lam and issues of the day. This conversation has been edited for clarity and length:

How do you regard President Donald Trump?

Trump is a nationalist. He is very much for building the power of the United States, but that may or may not include what is best for individuals in the nation or in the world.

For example, he has put in a director who he thinks will bring accountability to the FBI. But, in my opinion, the FBI should be eliminated because federal law enforcement is not authorized by the Constitution. So I don’t think he is going far enough.

I do like … [his] effort to downsize and hold government accountable … because there is no way that we can continue with the growth and expansion … of the federal government and expect it to be anything but what Rome became, which is basically a centralized dictatorial power. So if Trump is truly minimizing the size of government, he has a huge job in front of him [and] I applaud him for it.

What is your opinion of the MAGA movement?

They have made Trump their king, their savior. I believe they have done this because liberty has been under such threat that they feel Trump is the way [for them] to preserve that liberty.

The jury is certainly out on Trump because you see similar things happening now that happened in the 1930s in Germany. But you also see Trump … trying to stop a war [in Ukraine]. If those efforts are sincere, I applaud him for it.

But to give a person that much unchecked power politically, almost [to the point] of worshipping [him], that is very dangerous. Presidents … function more like kings now, and our Constitution never authorized a president to give executive orders outside the executive branch that affected everybody else.

What do you think about Elon Musk?

He’s an extremely intelligent person who basically went from being a liberal Democrat to someone who understands that the ideas that the Democratic Party or the liberals put forth are not going to work.

He’s also been subject to government regulations and seen how hard it is to invent, create and develop when you have the government constantly regulating and trying to control you. So if he is trying to deregulate and lower the size of government, I applaud [that] absolutely.

What is your opinion of the Trump administration’s immigration policy?

I don’t look at people who come into another land or cross some line as criminals. I look at it a couple of ways. One, if someone comes into this land and commits a crime, I think they should be … punished and required to restore the damages back to the victim. And if they can’t restore the damage back to that person, then that’s where capital punishment comes in. … [But] I believe that any person can come into this country, contribute and be good people and good neighbors and be beneficial to everybody — as long as they don’t commit crimes.

Second, I don’t believe that people should come [to] this country and receive handouts. What we do is showcase the handouts everyone can get and then wonder why everybody comes across the border. So [we should] end the handouts. … There’s not much need for a border wall or anything else beyond that.

Where do you fall on the political spectrum?

I align with the idea of being a political conservative. But people use conservative in so many different ways that it is hard for me to say that. I believe that freedom is the ability to do whatever you want as long as you do not infringe upon another person’s rights. That is the same definition Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson had.

Democrats want to take the fruits of people’s labor, funnel it through the government, and then have it redistributed to whoever they want. That’s just pure theft. It destroys nations [and] people’s drive to produce, to improve and to develop and create.

And then you have Republican[s] … and the ultra-nationalists going on where the nation is more important than the individual and the health of a nation somehow trumps the health of individuals — that the purpose of government is not to protect individual rights but to become a powerful entity … I don’t agree with that either.

Why do you feel Utah, not the federal government, should control its public lands?

If you can control the land and the resources, you have ultimate control over everybody and everything. So for Utah to allow a centralized power to control … almost 70% of its land and resources … it is baffling to me that people are OK with that. Then we wonder why we are scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to pay our bills.

Why were you so opposed to the mask mandates imposed during the COVID-19 pandemic?

I don’t believe that another person, whether they are in government or not, has the right to tell me that I have to wear a mask. In Idaho, there was a lockdown order [issued] that I can’t go to church, visit my family or go to work. I do not believe any person has the right to restrict those for me or anybody else.

How would you characterize the Jan. 6 insurrection in the U.S. Capitol?

I would say most people were there just to protest and participate in all that was going on. But … did they really think that they were going to take over the government?

I just don’t think that that was the plan. I don’t think that there was any plan. I think there were a lot of emotions and feelings going on and it got out of hand.

Has your activism produced any kind of rift with your family?

No, not with my extended family like my brothers and sisters. I’ve never had any of that. … In the heat of things, or when things get difficult, people always question themselves. I question myself from time to time. I’m sure my family has, too. But, again, when it comes down to it, I have to ask the question of what is right and wrong and if I did the best I could. I’m not perfect.

Militias took part in your standoffs with the federal government, but you seem to have distanced yourself from them lately. Has your attitude about militias changed?

There was a fairly strong base of militias in the United States, and we saw that strength and organization in 2014 at the Bundy Ranch [standoff]. … [But] over the last 10-plus years, I have watched the FBI attack and destroy every single militia organization across this country, and there is pretty much no militia left.

Basically, the FBI has done to the militias in this country just like the CIA has done to many governments across the world. You have to ask yourself why the [FBI] would attack and try to destroy these organizations. And I think the answer is in the Second Amendment of the Constitution, the very first part of it [that says] “a well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state.” The founders believed that you cannot be free unless you have a militia.

Is there anything in the theology of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that you think drives some members to join militia groups?

When you look at LDS history, [members] were peaceful … organizing under a certain religion, and we were politically attacked for that.

[Our] people were murdered, raped, our lands taken, and we were driven out of the United States. … [and the] federal government was not protecting the people.

Even when [church founder] Joseph Smith went to the president of the United States [and asked] for relief, what did [Martin Van Buren] say? “Your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you.”

How do you regard the Constitution and do you think it is in peril?

I actually have a copy of the Constitution in my front pocket. I hadn’t carried it for a long time — not because I honored or dishonored it any different than I did before, but … because I almost feel it is not worth trying to enforce or promote anymore. In many ways, it almost seems like a forgotten document.

[For example], the Fourth Amendment restricts the government from [unlawfully] seizing your property. But if you look at the courts, they have [created] over 450 exceptions to the Fourth Amendment … Everything is about people. So we are talking about a person with a badge who …might think they have the authority to go raid someone’s home, take their property and have all these exceptions.

Do you think we are in the last days spoken of in scripture?

I believe that we are in the last days. I believe that the scriptures are accurate. … I believe [the last days] could be a long period of time. [In the Book of Mormon], Moroni said he has been commanded to write about [the last days] … in order that evil may be done away with, that the millennium may come.

It almost seems like he is saying that we have a duty to clean things up so the millennium can come… I believe that we have a duty to … clean up our government, to clean up the corruption, to try to call each other to repentance … and do our best to uncover the darkness so that light can take its place.

Do you believe in the White Horse Prophecy, the alleged prediction by Joseph Smith that the Constitution would hang by thread and Latter-day Saints would rally to save it?

I’ve had a lot of people ask me about that, and I don’t really know that I have read the White Horse Prophecy. I do hope that there are enough good men and women in the church that if it came time that we needed to defend our families, defend our liberty [and] defend our neighbors, … that we would come to that defense.

What is your cause now? Have you morphed from a Book of Mormon-like Captain Moroni leading the movement to someone like the final Moroni wandering in the wilderness?

Those men are much better than me. … But I have been through trials before. There was a time [during] my many months in solitary confinement where my family was suffering and barely able to make ends meet, and [we were] wondering if we would ever see each other again.

I watched how the Lord took that situation, and the very people who dug that pit [for me and my family], ended up falling into their own mire. When powerful people attack you, it takes a long time … for things to turn around and for you to be somewhat vindicated and restored.

My cause [has] never changed. It is to raise my family and help my community. If there is something or someone who needs my help, I’m going to do it. That’s all I have ever done.

Note to readers • This story is available to Salt Lake Tribune subscribers only. Thank you for supporting local journalism.