LDS women ‘can never be totally equal’ without ordination, but maybe ... ‘more equal’

A decade after the Ordain Women movement within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints made national news, another feminist issue is getting lots of media attention.

During a March 17 meeting to celebrate the creation of the church’s Relief Society, J. Anette Dennis, first counselor in the faith’s global women’s organization, declared that “there is no other religious organization in the world that I know of that has so broadly given power and authority to women.”

Dennis went on to say that “other faiths ordain women to roles like priest or pastor, but those individuals represent a small minority when compared to the total number of women within their congregations.”

In the Utah-based church, all women “who choose a covenant relationship with God in the House of the Lord are endowed with priesthood power directly from God.”

But when the church posted Dennis’ quote on Instagram, a flood of responses from women ensued — more than 15,000 comments. And, in an unusual acknowledgment, the church’s social media team promised to share the “thoughts, feelings and experiences” with the faith’s leaders.

The Salt Lake Tribune’s “Mormon Land” podcast looked at the speech, the crush of responses and the role of women in the global faith of 17 million members with two Latter-day Saint feminists: Julie de Azevedo Hanks, a therapist in Utah, and Amy Watkins Jensen, a middle school humanities teacher in Oakland, California, who created the Women on the Stand letter-writing campaign in the wake of women’s leaders being removed from the stand at worship services in the Bay Area.

Here are excerpts:

What did you think about the statement that “there is no other religious organization in the world that I know of that has so broadly given power and authority to women”?

Hanks • It’s problematic to make statements that are so broad [while] understanding that there’s going to be a lot of different experiences that people have with other faiths. I’m a part of an interfaith women’s group, and I know how much women work in churches…and do it with varying amounts of power. It is technically true, if you consider the endowment [to be] priesthood power and authority. It is available to any woman in the church. … But the gatekeepers of that process are all men. You go to a man for a temple recommend. You go to men primarily to perform the ordinances in the temple. We need to clarify what priesthood power and authority we are talking about. …A lot of women feel like, “Yeah, I have power from God, but what can I do with it in the structure of the church?” Not a lot.

Jensen • Honestly, President Dennis’ statement was a gift. We often don’t talk about our lived experiences. And that’s to the detriment of the organization.…It is a conversation that needs to be had, if we are really going to be building Zion. And if we’re really going to be bringing God’s children unto Christ, then we need to be able to take some harsh feedback….We’re allowed to publicly put this somewhere [and] it was on the church’s Instagram account. When you’re saying it to the church, you’re saying, “I want to be heard.”... It was really brave for a lot of women to do that.

Was the comparison to other religions — especially other religions that overtly ordain women, who run entire churches — a problematic part of it?

Hanks • Last year, I officiated my daughter’s wedding. I was ordained through the internet and it was so wonderful. Afterward, it was so sad, because I realized I have more authority from American Marriage Ministries than I do from my own church…It really sent me into a lot of sadness and grief in experiencing what it’s like to have some official authority. It was a stark contrast to what I’ve experienced at church.

The talk distinguished priesthood power from priesthood office. Do you?

Jensen • As a woman, I know I can act in God’s name. I feel it in my stewardship, whether in my family or at church….It’s not administrative power. That’s clear. But that doesn’t make it less powerful, except for the fact that we don’t define it well. We’re left to our own devices to ask: What does that mean, and how is my stewardship honored and respected?

What did you think of the church’s promise to share the comments with leaders ?

Jensen • I can never remember a time the church said that. There’s something about this moment that is powerful…So I’m glad that they put that statement out. I hope the church [leaders] will receive the gift that’s been given to them and to us. We are saying, “This is our church.”

Hanks • I was actually shocked that night. And the next day, I was [amazed that] people [were] still posting. Good for them. It also shows that there is no mechanism in the church for women to give direct feedback. It’s always “go to your bishop and he’ll [send it] up the chain.” We know it won’t go up the chain, so why do it? This shows women need a feedback mechanism to give input about our experiences, because it’s currently not happening. Kudos to the church for allowing the discussion.

Do you feel like women have more priesthood power in the church today or less than in the past?

Hanks • I don’t think I have any more power, [but] there are fewer obvious, oppressive elements. The temple language changes. Slightly more visibility for women, but I do not feel like I have more power and authority than I’ve ever had.

Jensen • In my lifetime, messaging has changed. There have been some changes in practice, tradition and wording… The difference that I see is in women themselves. We understand our power differently…We have so much to give, and we love the church enough to offer it. We need to be looking at our practices. How do we meet this understanding that women have and what we’re experiencing outside of the church? That’s not about doctrine.

If gender equity is a goal, can it come without women holding priesthood office?

Hanks • It can never be totally equal, but there are lots of things we can do that don’t require priesthood that would make it a lot more equal. If women are ordained to the priesthood, it’s still a male priesthood. I would like something more to be restored that is about women’s power and authority. That’s not borrowing the men’s. That would be my ideal.

Jensen • I don’t have a grasp on priesthood in order to even answer that question…It’s because I’m still trying to internalize what priesthood means to me and what it looks like in the temple versus what it looks like outside the temple…One of the most comforting beliefs that I hold as a Latter-day Saint is continuous revelation and restoration. So I always hesitate to put what exists now as a limit as to what could exist in the future.

Were you encouraged by the massive response to the talk or discouraged?

Jensen • Incredibly encouraged. On my Instagram account, @womenonthestand, I’m not just hearing from women, I’m hearing from men, too. I honestly don’t think there’s a path forward unless we can do this in partnership with men, unless we can help men understand why it’s just as important for them.

Hanks • I’m incredibly encouraged by the women who spoke up but I’m also discouraged. Church is the only place that I am told I cannot contribute or lead because I’m a woman. I own a couple of businesses.…My discouragement is that I think we are going to lose this next generation of women if something doesn’t change.

What do you hope for Latter-day Saint women in the future?

Hanks • Men and women working equally together at every level is my vision. We have the theology. We’ve just inherited these traditions that are getting in the way of really becoming who we can be as a people.

Jensen • Amen.…We are [losing out] by not having women at every table and by not encouraging women’s voices in every part of the structure of the church….The metaphor that really resonates with me is the body of Christ, and that we value all parts of the body of Christ, and know that our oneness really depends on that.

To hear the full podcast, go to sltrib.com/podcasts/mormonland. To receive full “Mormon Land” transcripts, along with our complete newsletter and exclusive access to all Tribune religion content, support us at Patreon.com/mormonland.

Editor’s note • This story is available to Salt Lake Tribune subscribers only. Thank you for supporting local journalism.