The question is, will they agree on how to do it?

Utah leaders are working to join a nationwide trend toward paying teachers based on performance in the classroom. The idea is to both ease the teacher shortage and improve instruction. It would be a huge change from the current system in which teachers are paid based on years of experience and educational backgrounds.

It's a change that could affect instructional quality in Utah - for good or bad, depending on how it's done.

"By providing incentives we can get teachers to focus like a laser on student achievement," said Rep. Brad Last, R-St. George, who serves in both of the groups working on a new pay system.

On the other hand, he said, "if we try to ram something down their throats they don't want, it will backfire."

Both the legislative Education Interim Committee and a Utah State Board of Education group composed of lawmakers, education leaders and teachers are working on long-term, state plans to reform pay.

It's a concept a number of states are already using. State leaders say Utah's time for teacher pay reform has come.

"Whether we are for or against it, at some point, is largely irrelevant," Larry Shumway, state associate superintendent, told one of the groups recently. "The winds are blowing."

No simple solution: So far, over the course of about a month, state leaders have come up with a lot of questions. They'll spend at least another six months searching for answers.

For example, should school districts reward teachers based on their students' test scores, their evaluations, or less tangible qualities such as teaching style and teamwork?

Should districts reward individual teachers or entire school staffs? How much money is enough to make a difference?

Robert Stonehill, chief program officer for Learning Point Associates which operates centers nationwide, and an expert on performance pay, said some past programs in other parts of the country have struggled for three main reasons: They were based mainly on subjective teacher evaluations by administrators; the rewards were too small to matter; or they were poorly designed and underfunded, pitting teacher against teacher.

Many Utah teachers are concerned a new pay program here would create more problems than it would solve. They worry about basing pay on test scores.

"You get a whole different mix of children each year," said Kevin Ball, a sixth-grade teacher at Rosamond Elementary School with 30 years of experience. "I can't think of a fair way they could try and make a pay system like that work."

State leaders are still trying to decide how much of Utah's program might be based on test scores and what kind of test scores to consider.

Stonehill said Utah might want to look to Minnesota's pay plan. That plan allows districts to design their own programs, and student academic achievement and progress account for only 60 percent of pay increases. Teachers get the rest of their money based on their responsibilities, professional development and other evaluations.

Stonehill said some other modern pay programs, such as the one in Denver, seem to have helped schools fill hard-to-staff positions.

Emily Jackson, a second-grade teacher at Sandy's Altara Elementary School, said she wouldn't want to see a pay system based on test scores because some teachers have students with highly educated, involved parents while others don't.

But Jackson, who just finished her third year of teaching, said she'd favor pay for performance based on other factors.

"If someone were to come in and evaluate me and look at the energy I put into my work and the involvement I put into my job and if I were paid based on that, I think it would be awesome," Jackson said. "I think there's a lot of teachers who just kind of sit back at their desks and hardly do anything, but [they] get paid more than I do."

Utah Education Association President Kim Campbell said it's important to start thinking about reforming teaching pay, but reforms should build upon current practices.

"I suggest we don't throw the baby out with the bath water," Campbell recently told lawmakers.

Who decides? For a reformed pay program to work, teachers, lawmakers and education leaders must work together, Stonehill said. That was the original idea for Utah.

Last and Sen. Howard Stephenson, R-Draper, sponsored a bill last session that would have created a task force composed of lawmakers, state board members, local school board members and teachers to study implementing performance pay, but the bill didn't make it out of the Senate. Stephenson said lawmakers decided the topic would be better handled by the interim committee than by a task force.

But the Utah State Board of Education still wanted to have some say.

Now, two groups are meeting separately to figure out a plan. They discuss similar topics and have even heard the same presentations by some of the same speakers.

Taxpayers could wind up spending nearly $35,000 on the two groups - between travel expenses, lawmakers' payments and food - before the end of the year if meetings continue to cost as much as they have so far.

Leaders of both groups say they are communicating in hopes of coming up with a solution together. That's the best-case scenario. The worst-case scenario is that the groups can't reach a compromise. In such a case, a bill voted into law by lawmakers would likely take precedence over a policy voted on by state school board members.

"It doesn't matter if 99 percent of us say this is the way to go," said David McNaughtan, an assistant principal at Park City High School who sits on the state board group. "If the Legislature's not going to go for it, it won't make a difference."

State board member Dixie Allen said the state board wants to at least try to "be at the head of this parade."

"If the legislature chooses to manipulate, change or destroy [our plan] that's their prerogative," Allen said.

Stephenson said lawmakers will likely rely heavily on the board group's education expertise. Rep. Greg Hughes, R-Draper, who co-chairs the lawmakers' group with Stephenson, said if the state board creates a good policy, lawmakers might not need to present a bill.

He said lawmakers understand they must work with the state board group because without the education community's support, a pay for performance system won't get very far.

Hughes said the end result will likely be a compromise between what lawmakers and educators want.

At this point, however, it's unclear exactly what either group wants. Some educators are warming to the idea of reforming teacher pay, but many fear state leaders are just looking for a trendy fix to bigger problems such as low teacher salaries and large class sizes.

Stonehill said pay for performance should ideally be part of a wider effort to improve education.

"Improving teacher pay by itself is weak unless it's combined with a broader vision of improving our education system," Stonehill said.